diff --git a/logcat/logcatd.rc b/logcat/logcatd.rc
index 7d70dd9..ce1a451 100644
--- a/logcat/logcatd.rc
+++ b/logcat/logcatd.rc
@@ -1,21 +1,62 @@
+#
+# init scriptures for logcatd persistent logging.
+#
+# Make sure any property changes are only performed with /data mounted, after
+# post-fs-data state because otherwise behavior is undefined. The exceptions
+# are device adjustments for logcatd service properties (persist.* overrides
+# notwithstanding) for logd.logpersistd.size and logd.logpersistd.buffer.
+
+# persist to non-persistent trampolines to permit device properties can be
+# overridden when /data mounts, or during runtime.
+on property:persist.logd.logpersistd.size=256
+    setprop persist.logd.logpersistd.size ""
+    setprop logd.logpersistd.size ""
+
+on property:persist.logd.logpersistd.size=*
+    # expect /init to report failure if property empty (default)
+    setprop logd.logpersistd.size ${persist.logd.logpersistd.size}
+
+on property:persist.logd.logpersistd.buffer=all
+    setprop persist.logd.logpersistd.buffer ""
+    setprop logd.logpersistd.buffer ""
+
+on property:persist.logd.logpersistd.buffer=*
+    # expect /init to report failure if property empty (default)
+    setprop logd.logpersistd.buffer ${persist.logd.logpersistd.buffer}
+
 on property:persist.logd.logpersistd=logcatd
+    setprop logd.logpersistd logcatd
+
+# enable, prep and start logcatd service
+on load_persist_props_action
+    setprop logd.logpersistd.enable true
+
+on property:logd.logpersistd.enable=true && property:logd.logpersistd=logcatd
     # all exec/services are called with umask(077), so no gain beyond 0700
     mkdir /data/misc/logd 0700 logd log
     # logd for write to /data/misc/logd, log group for read from pstore (-L)
-    exec - logd log -- /system/bin/logcat -L -b ${persist.logd.logpersistd.buffer:-all} -v threadtime -v usec -v printable -D -f /data/misc/logd/logcat -r 1024 -n ${persist.logd.logpersistd.size:-256}
+    exec - logd log -- /system/bin/logcat -L -b ${logd.logpersistd.buffer:-all} -v threadtime -v usec -v printable -D -f /data/misc/logd/logcat -r 1024 -n ${logd.logpersistd.size:-256}
     start logcatd
 
-on property:persist.logd.logpersistd=clear
+# stop logcatd service and clear data
+on property:logd.logpersistd.enable=true && property:logd.logpersistd=clear
+    setprop persist.logd.logpersistd ""
     stop logcatd
     # logd for clear of only our files in /data/misc/logd
-    exec - logd log -- /system/bin/logcat -c -f /data/misc/logd/logcat -n ${persist.logd.logpersistd.size:-256}
-    setprop persist.logd.logpersistd ""
+    exec - logd log -- /system/bin/logcat -c -f /data/misc/logd/logcat -n ${logd.logpersistd.size:-256}
+    setprop logd.logpersistd ""
 
-on property:persist.logd.logpersistd=stop
+# stop logcatd service
+on property:logd.logpersistd=stop
+    setprop persist.logd.logpersistd ""
     stop logcatd
-    setprop persist.logd.logpersistd ""
+    setprop logd.logpersistd ""
 
-service logcatd /system/bin/logcat -b ${persist.logd.logpersistd.buffer:-all} -v threadtime -v usec -v printable -D -f /data/misc/logd/logcat -r 1024 -n ${persist.logd.logpersistd.size:-256}
+on property:logd.logpersistd.enable=false
+    stop logcatd
+
+# logcatd service
+service logcatd /system/bin/logcat -b ${logd.logpersistd.buffer:-all} -v threadtime -v usec -v printable -D -f /data/misc/logd/logcat -r 1024 -n ${logd.logpersistd.size:-256}
     class late_start
     disabled
     # logd for write to /data/misc/logd, log group for read from log daemon
diff --git a/logcat/logpersist b/logcat/logpersist
index d1eda37..e9982e2 100755
--- a/logcat/logpersist
+++ b/logcat/logpersist
@@ -8,8 +8,16 @@
    ;;
 esac
 
-data=/data/misc/logd
 property=persist.logd.logpersistd
+
+case `getprop ${property#persist.}.enable` in
+true) ;;
+*) echo "${progname} - Disabled"
+   exit 1
+   ;;
+esac
+
+data=/data/misc/logd
 service=logcatd
 size_default=256
 buffer_default=all
@@ -69,11 +77,11 @@
   su logd xargs cat
   ;;
 *.start)
-  current_buffer="`getprop ${property}.buffer`"
-  current_size="`getprop ${property}.size`"
-  if [ "${service}" = "`getprop ${property}`" ]; then
+  current_buffer="`getprop ${property#persist.}.buffer`"
+  current_size="`getprop ${property#persist.}.size`"
+  if [ "${service}" = "`getprop ${property#persist.}`" ]; then
     if [ "true" = "${clear}" ]; then
-      setprop ${property} "clear"
+      setprop ${property#persist.} "clear"
     elif [ "${buffer}|${size}" != "${current_buffer}|${current_size}" ]; then
       echo   "ERROR: Changing existing collection parameters from" >&2
       if [ "${buffer}" != "${current_buffer}" ]; then
@@ -96,22 +104,30 @@
       exit 1
     fi
   elif [ "true" = "${clear}" ]; then
-    setprop ${property} "clear"
+    setprop ${property#persist.} "clear"
   fi
   if [ -n "${buffer}${current_buffer}" ]; then
     setprop ${property}.buffer "${buffer}"
+    if [ -z "${buffer}" ]; then
+      # deal with trampoline for empty properties
+      setprop ${property#persist.}.buffer ""
+    fi
   fi
   if [ -n "${size}${current_size}" ]; then
     setprop ${property}.size "${size}"
+    if [ -z "${size}" ]; then
+      # deal with trampoline for empty properties
+      setprop ${property#persist.}.size ""
+    fi
   fi
-  while [ "clear" = "`getprop ${property}`" ]; do
+  while [ "clear" = "`getprop ${property#persist.}`" ]; do
     continue
   done
   # ${service}.rc does the heavy lifting with the following trigger
   setprop ${property} ${service}
-  getprop ${property}
   # 20ms done, to permit process feedback check
   sleep 1
+  getprop ${property#persist.}
   # also generate an error return code if not found running
   pgrep -u ${data##*/} ${service%d}
   ;;
@@ -124,13 +140,17 @@
   else
     setprop ${property} "stop"
   fi
-  if [ -n "`getprop ${property}.buffer`" ]; then
+  if [ -n "`getprop ${property#persist.}.buffer`" ]; then
     setprop ${property}.buffer ""
+    # deal with trampoline for empty properties
+    setprop ${property#persist.}.buffer ""
   fi
-  if [ -n "`getprop ${property}.size`" ]; then
+  if [ -n "`getprop ${property#persist.}.size`" ]; then
     setprop ${property}.size ""
+    # deal with trampoline for empty properties
+    setprop ${property#persist.}.size ""
   fi
-  while [ "clear" = "`getprop ${property}`" ]; do
+  while [ "clear" = "`getprop ${property#persist.}`" ]; do
     continue
   done
   ;;
diff --git a/logd/README.property b/logd/README.property
index 4bc5541..10694d8 100644
--- a/logd/README.property
+++ b/logd/README.property
@@ -1,4 +1,4 @@
-The properties that logd responds to are:
+The properties that logd and friends react to are:
 
 name                       type default  description
 ro.logd.auditd.dmesg       bool   true   selinux audit messages duplicated and
@@ -9,8 +9,16 @@
 ro.logd.statistics         bool+ svelte+ Enable logcat -S statistics.
 ro.debuggable              number        if not "1", logd.statistics &
                                          ro.logd.kernel default false.
+logd.logpersistd.enable    bool   auto   Safe to start logpersist daemon service
+logd.logpersistd          string persist Enable logpersist daemon, "logcatd"
+                                         turns on logcat -f in logd context.
+					 Responds to logcatd, clear and stop.
+logd.logpersistd.buffer          persist logpersistd buffers to collect
+logd.logpersistd.size            persist logpersistd size in MB
 persist.logd.logpersistd   string        Enable logpersist daemon, "logcatd"
-                                         turns on logcat -f in logd context
+                                         turns on logcat -f in logd context.
+persist.logd.logpersistd.buffer    all   logpersistd buffers to collect
+persist.logd.logpersistd.size      256   logpersistd size in MB
 persist.logd.size          number  ro    Global default size of the buffer for
                                          all log ids at initial startup, at
                                          runtime use: logcat -b all -G <value>
@@ -44,6 +52,7 @@
 persist.log.tag.<tag>      string build  default for log.tag.<tag>
 
 NB:
+- auto - managed by /init
 - bool+ - "true", "false" and comma separated list of "eng" (forced false if
   ro.debuggable is not "1") or "svelte" (forced false if ro.config.low_ram is
   true).